The Role of Self-Awareness in Personal Development and Relationships with Trisha Swinton

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to. This Is Source, the podcast that invites you to explore the depths of your being and tap into your true potential. This show is all about inspiring you to discover the power within yourself to create a life of purpose, joy and fulfillment. So sit back, relax and let's dive deep into the essence of who you are.

Agris: 0:34

Welcome, tricia. Welcome, we are so happy to have you at our podcast.

Trisha: 0:38

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Mark: 0:41

Yeah, we're super pumped. So I've known Tricia for almost my entire life. We grew up in the same town together and we went to the same school and church and all that stuff together. So we shared a lot of trauma together, but we laugh about it and we've had a lot of great times. Actually, super lucky, I guess, is the best way to say it because we grew up in a very tight knit community and so it was really just one big family and we were together for basically our whole elementary school and then we went to the same high school for a little while but then I left that high school and went to Oceanside and then after that we ended up in the same college together and that's when things really got out of control. But it was a great thing and we're still friends to this day.

Mark: 1:32

And the reason why I asked Tricia to be on this show is because she's a counselor. She's a licensed professional counselor and she specializes in marriage and family therapy. So I've been a coach now for a while and one of the things I think is important and maybe you would agree, maybe you wouldn't trust that you could be totally honest is that we kind of collaborate and see, because the coaching world and the therapy world are two totally different places, but sometimes they meet a little bit or they could learn from each other. I guess maybe you wouldn't say you could learn from a coach, but that's all right. But the bottom line is we're all in service In one way or another. We're all trying to be of service to people that are in need.

Mark: 2:18

It's always been the reason why we go into this type of work whether it's just a lot easier and cheaper to become a coach than it is to become a therapist and we don't have a lot of the same rules and regulations. But what do we do? We refer to people like you when we want to know things. So that's why I figured I'd drag you on the show and I was just saying to Agra and Tricia, right before we started recording, that I really just wanted to dump my problems on you and see if you could help me and then I could get a free therapy session out of it. So if you're down with that, I am down with that.

Mark: 2:50

Good, awesome. So tell us, you're in Colorado, right? Former New Yorker, and I know that you love Colorado because there was actually a group of them, agra, that went out to Colorado together and she's the lone survivor, right, I am, yeah, she's the lone survivor and she's out in Colorado and she built a practice and she loves it and she has amazing people working for her and she has lots of patients and clients and she has a beautiful family. So, tricia, how, like? Tell us, how is everything?

Trisha: 3:25

Thank you for asking. I, yes, we move. I moved out here in 2001 and I told my family it would be a year, just kind of a change of pace. And we're going on 22 years this August. So I am the last one standing still, friends with the two very good friends that moved back to New York and in 2008, I became licensed. I graduated grad school, 2004,. Got my license in 2008 and full time private practice in 2012. And then I added employees in 2021. So only two years that I've had the group practice and it's expanded. There's six of us now. There's five employees and one intern who's fantastic and it's going great.

Trisha: 4:07

It's. It's a lot of stress but also a lot of rewards. I I enjoy it. I also enjoy talking to Mark about your right. We both are in the helping profession.

Trisha: 4:19

I agree about the rules and regulations and sometimes that is a bit of a headache, just the licenses and your clients traveling to another state and they need their feet in Colorado, because my license is in Colorado and I'm also licensed in Illinois, which is so random, but some of my patients clients moved out there, so I got licensed there, but if they're traveling to North Carolina I'm not allowed to see them because their feet on the ground. I could go to North Carolina and they could. They could, you know, stay in Colorado, but that's the law. The clinician has to be licensed, I have. The clinician has to be licensed in the state, right, so I, so my all my clients, have to be in either Colorado or Illinois. So Mark and your clients guys can go wherever because you guys are co-disciplined. I know what you're saying.

Trisha: 5:07

Some of the rules and regulations make a lot of therapists and people I think want to just veer off to.

Trisha: 5:12

Maybe I do want to be a coach or something, but yeah, I'm, I'm following all the rules and regulations in that person's heart and I take insurance, medicaid, different months and some of that's hard to manage but it comes with stress, like any job. But I I enjoy it and I have a husband and we also need our own marriage and family therapist as well and we have three kids and it's a lot, you know owning a business, having a family and you know, just like all you guys, you know you work together to kind of, one person holds down the floor while the other person does, and I'm in my office today without the kids Aggress. You sent me the link on Monday and I had panic. I sent Mark oh my gosh, did I get the day wrong? And the reason I panic was because my kids were home with me on Monday and I thought, oh no, they're going to come on the video and it's going to be crazy and I didn't want to be, you know, cause that's just life.

Agris: 6:01

Yeah, we can bring our kids. You know, we can make it beautiful, Like many kids, and I have two as well. So actually, first of all, congratulations with NBA title, Denver Nuggets. You know like basketball.

Trisha: 6:19

My boys are in basketball camp this week. I have a 10 and seven year old and it was. A lot of the people in the camp are going to the parade and I'm down in Denver today and the parade is huge. We're not there because I'm at work, but I felt bad because half the camp, like my boys, like they're not going to be at camp. I'm like I'm sorry I have to go to work, but it's already crazy down here cause the big parade and it is kind of fun, even though I'm not a huge but I know. But thank you for the congratulations. I don't think I deserve it, but Denver is very happy today.

Agris: 6:46

Listen, you have license in Colorado. You know you deserve it. You know it's like sorry for Mark you are not going to get therapy today because you are not in this or in wrong state.

Mark: 7:00

Yeah. But see, the thing is technically I'm not a client, so I can still get advice, that's just I can't. She can't bill me, I can't bill it. It's a win-win yeah.

Agris: 7:11

But talking about this actually there was one to come back to this Denver Nuggets because there is a phenomenal player on the team and what I love about this player is his way of approaching things. I don't know if you know or not, but first thing, what he said after championship. He, the reporter, asked so how do you feel? It's like who job is done. I can go home, you know.

Trisha: 7:37

That's his off.

Agris: 7:39

Yeah, and I, you know he's from Europe, I'm from Europe and I really appreciate that he is not the fastest guy, he's not the most athletic guy, he doesn't. There was even interviews with him. He was young, like 19, on some NBA camp hoop, you know, and his answers was actually striking me. Reporter asked him you are not the fastest guy, you don't jump so high. How can you score the most points and are the best player on the court? And he's like I don't know, I don't know. You know, basketball is about teammates. If I'm free, I score, if I'm not, I give a pass. It's a simple game, you know. And that was like wow, actually people should have this approach to life. Right, why we complicate? And I think you, you, you meet many people on your daily practice. We just come with so like simple things but so complicated, right, they make it so complicated. So came from entertainment to actually life, like that's a good approach and that was for me, wow, you know, everything can be simple.

Trisha: 8:58

You're right.

Mark: 9:00

Yeah, excuse me. So do you see trends like in general, in terms of well, I guess we could start by focusing on the marriage and the family part, right? So do you see that there are trends in themes when people show up that tend to be overcomplicated? To Agris's point, I know people are different and they see life differently if they experience in different perspectives. But in all the years that you've been practicing, do you see any type of trends where it's like, oh yep, you know, as soon as they start talking, like what they're going to start going into?

Trisha: 9:37

I see a lot of trends with couples with young children, young children. I think it's so interesting when they both do their own individual work and it feels like you can get exactly what you need right. You're with your individual therapist and you can share everything you want to share and get the validation that you're this great husband. You're working so hard, you're doing great with the kids, but you're not able to get that from your wife. Even. It's just, I think, theme of how busy and crazy life is and it's just like your two ships passing in the night at your house with kids running around and sports and blah, blah, blah and like slowing down life, kind of like what Agris was saying. And just OK, can we take something off our plate or can we just slow it down? Or can we validate each other? Can we hear each other? Like that active listening and just slowing down our communication and how do we speak with our friends? Like we're probably not screaming at them and being vicious to them and snapping at them Like we do at our kids, like we do at our spouses, and I think it's the common theme is just. I think I'm seeing a lot of just how much we put on our plates as people that have jobs, have families or if you're even a single and just I have to do that, I have to keep up with that person. I have to do that and just instead of maybe being present with our family or what we're doing and kind of just giving those basic tools of like setting boundaries, active listening, how do we treat each other? And that's like basic one on one.

Trisha: 11:07

But I think people come in here a lot with just we're overwhelmed, what do we do? We have these kids. We're not connecting, we don't have any intimacy, we're depressed, we're anxious and it's like well, we don't even have a babysitter. Bring the kids in. Is that a little crazy? It is. Well, what are we going to do? We don't have. Let's do virtual.

Trisha: 11:25

Like I am very much like someone called me. I don't, they don't let me bring my baby in. I'm like not the therapist for you. I love babies. Like someone, like your baby. Like I don't. Like I'm also someone that's just a real person. Like I need you to be able to make it work for you. Like I guess some of that it kind of irks me. If a therapist is like I need you to, you can't bring your children. You need to find a baby, like I guess. I just feel like, yeah, I guess the common themes to me I'm seeing is general overwhelm in life and just the busyness and not being able to be present and connected with the people that mean the most to us and it's pushing us away and seeing a lot of separations, divorce and just which we were coming in usually to work on our relationships.

Mark: 12:09

Right.

Mark: 12:09

Isn't there something to be said about the fact that we think that marriage and raising children is supposed to be a certain way, it's supposed to look sound and behave in a certain way? And then, when you're actually in it, like everything else in life, you realize that it's nothing like the fantasy that you thought it was going to be. And then you don't really like no one's really walking around with the pins saying like I'm half dead, like these children are sucking the life out of me. You know like everyone walks around and pretends like they have everything under control. You know just sort of putting on a persona or a mask to pretend like everything's fine when it's not. And then that anger, that frustration, that all those emotions, they have to be expressed somewhere, somehow, right, so they come out in the most comfortable way that they can. And that's on the person that's probably not going to punch you back in the face when you turn on them, which is your spouse. But it also leads to, like you said, a lack of intimacy too, because if you're being mean and nasty to the person that you're also supposed to be in bed with, that person doesn't want to hook up with you Because you're the same person that, like, screamed at them a couple of hours ago or blamed them for all the things that weren't going a certain way.

Mark: 13:27

I remember when I wrote my book and I was at, the publisher sent me to a workshop for the weekend and it was to learn how to promote the book. And there was a young woman that stood up and she was a recently published author and she was saying to the owner of the publishing company because he was doing like a Q&A section and session and she said I just I'm trying to figure out how I can go out there on my speaking tour and promote my book and do all this stuff. But I'm a new mom and it's very stressful. He was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and this was way before I had kids, right. So he's like whoa, whoa, whoa, how old are your kids? And she's like I have an eight month old and I have a two and a half year old and I have a five year old. And he's like OK, stop you. Yeah, he's like you don't have to go on a book tour. He's like you can just be a mom right now and then when that is sort of like managed, ok, and you feel like you're in a good place to maybe like step outside of that a little bit, then we can have this conversation.

Mark: 14:34

And I remember I was very judgmental at that point and still, but I was like I was like, well, that's a crappy thing to say.

Mark: 14:42

The poor lady wants to go on a book tour and you tell her to forget the book tour and raise her children but then fast forward to obviously pumped out.

Mark: 14:51

We had a bunch of kids and I realized like now when I talk to young moms, like I literally just spoke to someone recently and she's a doctor. She went into all those years of going into school and spending all that time and energy into becoming a doctor and she decided that she wanted to put it on hold to raise the children and literally feels like her life is falling apart right now. And I'm like that's OK, like the most important thing is the children Just be present around the children. It's almost like he was able to say that because he was coming from the point of view of already having gone through it and he probably was looking at it from like your career is always going to be there. You can always go on that book tour, which is true. You can always embrace that thing, and right now it seems like you just have a lot on your plate that maybe you need to focus on, and then you can go on and kind of that direction.

Trisha: 15:47

Yes, that makes so much sense.

Mark: 15:49

Yeah, but I feel like you have to kind of go through it to be able to even be in a position where you could. I mean, that probably helps you in your practice and as a therapist. Right, because I remember when we were younger and we were supposed to go to the priests with our problems, right, right, and I never quite understood how we could like how all of what they said could be applicable to our life, because they weren't really going through the same things. I don't know. I feel like there's something to be said about being able to find a therapist that's maybe been able to walk in your shoes a little bit. I don't know. Yeah, you can't be a phone call.

Trisha: 16:25

And I think when I first got my license and I didn't have kids and I was almost, I think, anyone's nervous, like I'm a new therapist, like some of my therapists now are new therapists and they're doing great and they're under supervision but does build confidence and that life experience, I think in any career and it's always also a therapy, like what's important, like not to share too much about yourself. Right, you're my client. I'm not going to share my life story, like it's not about me here, but some of it, just a few little. It's always like the part of therapy disclose enough if it's beneficial to your client, like maybe one or two tidbits and maybe it's I'm a mom, that's it. You know what I mean. Like I'm not going to share the shit show in my life with you guys, but a little bit of that connection. It has gone a long way and it's just. I think it's appreciative of just oh my gosh, she has had to be. You know, you don't have to be a mom to be a therapist. I do agree with you, mark.

Trisha: 17:15

I think clients that are newer parents are just newer in their career or whatever. I think and as someone that's going to therapy myself, I do. I'm not judging people, but I want someone with life experience. I don't care when you graduate, I just I need you to have some life experience too, because it just helps me, like it helps me to know that you have life experience, because I think we just look up to people that have been around, have done it. You're right, I want to kind of know you've walked in this before. It helps me to know you've done this. So people do appreciate that life experience, I think.

Agris: 17:46

Yeah, I will jump in.

Agris: 17:49

I knew yeah, I have kids, Two kids, One is two, One is 12. Big gap, Fun. The second felt like first again. But I just wanted to come back to that family as a unity. I think that's the huge, huge thing for people to separate them from it, Because many times they want to separate them so they think like, oh, this is better for a kid, this is better for me, and they start the separation process and they start to think, but they forget that kid actually choose them. So whatever is good for me, it's actually good for kids.

Agris: 18:35

I'm not speaking like alcohol or whatever you know, but like when the first kid arrived to my family, we were very active, the business was being involved with lots of traveling, like lots of traveling. Like really I worked in fashion industry and it was like really literally New York, London, Paris, Milano, you know like everything in a month. The gap, or baby was like eight months old and we were like, okay, how are we going to travel? And then you start to think like, oh, he shouldn't be traveling and you start to separate yourself. And then at that point for me was like wait, wait, wait. We are family, we are united, he knows where he came, he choose us, so he actually are going to travel with us everywhere and we, just from that day, we just start to take our son. Now he's all the son everywhere with us, to all fashion weeks, to all back stages, to all meetings, to just actually it was so beautiful, it was so, and I think he grew up with such a much more vision like, and consciousness and awareness than he would just sit home with babysitter all the time, you know.

Agris: 19:59

And there was this situation and now, then I will let you speak about this how probably it was good or not, I don't know from therapist standpoint, you know, Actually it wasn't good, but you could call me, you know, there was this situation in kindergarten. I remember, you know, and that time we still was living in Latvia and then I came to take my son from the kindergarten. He was like four or five and is like okay, get ready, we are going to Paris. One of the kids, other kids, he's like what is Paris? And my son, look at him. You don't know what is Paris. Oh, my gosh. You know I was like, oh, that's the consciousness, that's the awareness of seeing so much more than kindergarten and actually, even though probably we let him go through lots of travels and harddles and maybe he could spend more with children with his age group and he was forced to go to restaurants and meetings a lot. I think that was what he chose to do with us. How do you see from the point of therapist about this? You know?

Trisha: 21:18

How I see it Hagrid is. I was just thinking of how much I enjoy it. I know I'm not a therapist right now talking to you guys I know we're just having a conversation yeah, I was just thinking I'm so interested in your life and your experience and hearing about how you brought your kid abroad and I'm so interested and just again just thinking I really am such a therapist because I'm so interested in learning about people's lives and there's no right or wrong. I think that's so cool that you brought your son around and maybe your other kid, who had a big age difference. You probably had a different life. You probably couldn't bring him around and maybe you weren't traveling as much. Then your life was different. When you had then the two, life is different now. I think it's amazing and I think you guys created this awesome life. And the point is I just am so interested in Mark's life, in your life.

Trisha: 22:02

I was happy to meet you and I'm such a person that even if we just go out to a random we don't go out that much party my husband would be like, well, how do you know that? And I'm like, oh, the wife, did you know that she was a blah, blah, blah. He's like where did that come from? I'm like, oh, she told me in the kitchen and I'm just like I just love hearing people's stories and getting to know people and I think I just, I don't know, it's not, I'm just a genuine. It's not just like textbook, like well, therapy is. I just really enjoy knowing people and hearing stories. So I don't know, just you sharing that. I don't think I don't have a writer. I just think it's really cool that you did that and I'm interested in just learning about your life. So thank you for telling me that.

Mark: 22:38

That was my teaching. That's a short curiosity that's been in with you since you were born and people will never be satisfied, like you'll always be entering new rooms with new people and ask you.

Trisha: 22:51

You know, I just I'm always just so interested to like meet people and get to know people and hear their story.

Mark: 22:55

Well, it's funny, agris, when, when we decided to like sell the house and buy the RV and travel across the country or whatever, we have like a huge network of friends that we share in common and Tricia was the only one of all my friends that called me and was like wait a second, you're doing what? You're going where? What are you doing? Like she wanted to know detail by detail. Like Tricia, I haven't talked to you in a while. Like she's like yeah, but everyone else is talking about this and no one has the answers. I want the answers. Like I was like I'll just call Mark and ask him. Anyway, I just thought that was great because I was like well.

Mark: 23:31

I want to shit. No, I wasn't mad and I actually felt like, well, I mean, thank you for asking, you know, like I felt, like I felt, you know, in a way touched, that you were even interested, you know, and but that's just a testament to your true nature is just like a curiosity about people and wondering like how is that all going to play out? What's that going to look like? And I don't know. And also, to take it a step further, I remember when we decided to pull the kids out of school and we were going to road school that's what they call it, right, like it's homeschooling, but in an RV, you know, we got tons of pushback from people saying that it was the wrong thing to do and we were being selfish, that we were irresponsible, you know, like we could make a whole show out of it, but the bottom line is that it was always coming from a place of judgment and fear, right, and because it's like well, like I don't know, we don't need to go too deep into that, but I feel like it's sort of the opposite approach to what Trisha is talking about, in terms of just being curious about it and saying and I loved her answer actually to your question, which was I actually don't have a response to that, because that really would just be a judgment, and who the hell am I to say that that's the right thing or the wrong thing?

Mark: 24:47

That's what you chose to do, and so that was the right decision, which ties back into everything that you believe, agris, which is that everybody should just claim their own sense of authority within themselves and make decisions and stop wondering and questioning and going outside of themselves for answers. You know like is this the right thing or is it the wrong thing? None of us know. Let's be honest with you. None of us know what the right or the wrong thing to do is right, and most of us are scared shit to do it. A couple of us have screwed up enough in life to know that we will survive, no matter how bad our decisions are, and so I think that that helps us to put ourselves out on a limb. We could even go into that right now, right? So you've had your own trials and tribulations in life, right? And how has that helped you to be a better person, not only a better therapist, but also a better person to yourself and sort of how you see the world?

Trisha: 25:45

Yes, I'm assuming you're referring to the divorce, which is fine, right, because I was bad, I was going to say bad joke, I was going to say learning not to ever change my name again, which I didn't do, but it wasn't really a testament to my current marriage. I just really people know my maiden name, so I just never changed it.

Trisha: 26:05

Really we were at first meeting Dave, it was you know, why get married again? Like we both want to have kids, like let's just do this, which is really not me. I'm somebody that does like to be married and is kind of traditional. But I was just like what's the point of this? Like you don't really need to get married, like then you don't get divorced. You know, you don't have to worry about getting divorced If you don't. Actually he wanted to get not to blame him, he's a great guy. But it was very traumatic. When I went through a divorce. I was devastated and I think that did help also in being a therapist. But I did write a book about it. Again, I didn't sell it to people. I really didn't even market it because it was really just for my own therapeutic like to help my own self.

Trisha: 26:46

A few trans I shared it with just because they were devastated with divorces and they said it was helpful. But I think it helped just in. Again, just that relatability of grief and loss of this is something that feels like to people, like your life could be completely over. This chapter that you thought was going one way Just the rug gets kind of feels like it's pulled out from under you and, wow, your life can actually totally be something different. Like doing something different. I have I always wanted to, I'm doing what I want to be doing and I'm happy and I think it just shows right Like that you could get through hard things and I don't. I think it's just helpful. And a lot of people, a lot of my clients, are going through a divorce, have gotten divorced, broke up with their boyfriend and it feels like a divorce, Like it doesn't matter marriage or not, Like ending relationships is a very hard thing for people and I think we all know that.

Mark: 27:41

Yeah, it's a death right.

Trisha: 27:43

If yeah, it could feel like that death.

Agris: 27:46

It's, it's another proof that actually we are united, we are the one in the relationship. We become one, yes, and when you literally get separated or you decide to get separated, so you actually that's how I could see it you know you get separated from that collective. Whatever collective to people is collective. Already you know collective energy and you actually start to face again your energy, your emotions, not collective ones. So you have to learn how to live again just within you again and think if I want to unite again which we do again, you know, because that's our nature, you know just to find the second half and just to blend into this beautiful relationship and this union. And and then, when kids come, how to blend them into right, how to and more, more kids. Like Mark, you know, he's just all the time experiencing new, new tests.

Agris: 28:53

you know for kids how to blend now all, how to make all family blended within. You know, and everyone has with their own energy, on their own path. It's so beautiful and I like when you started the episode and you said that actually all we have to do is to look to become more present, to do to have that presence within us so we actually can finally start to listen to us, because otherwise we don't and we just. I love this conversation. Everyone is the family and you are experts of the family and this is great, you know.

Mark: 29:35

Yeah, definitely. And I think that somebody said to me once and it stuck with me and they said you know, sometimes a marriage not working out is a marriage that worked out, and like I never thought about that until they said that, which is to mean that, like, sometimes the ending of something is okay. You know sometimes that that is the best past, sometimes that, as hard as it is to to go through that process, it sometimes is the better path, right? So I'm curious. I guess my question to you is what did you like? Okay? So, trying to formulate the question, I'm thinking that if somebody is going through a divorce because you know why you got a divorce and you know what, you know, like all that went into that but if somebody, how do you see things differently?

Mark: 30:26

Now, having gone through that marriage and I read your book, by the way, it's a phenomenal book I understand why you didn't market it. What I appreciated the most about it was how raw, truthful, honest and vulnerable you were in the process, and most people are just not willing to do that, you know. Especially people like us, who you know were, were like conditioned to sweep everything under the carpet and pretend like everything is fine. So that was. That was a hard thing that you did and it was amazing and it was. There was a lot that if somebody wanted to take the time to read it which I'm glad that I did will learn not only a lot about you but about themselves in the process, right because of what you shared. So I would encourage people to find that Watch now book sales are going to go up.

Mark: 31:13

But what I'm trying to say is that I want to. I guess I'm kind of curious, like what did you learn in the process of that in terms of how things went in that relationship to where you are now? And then also, how does that affect you know, the people that come to see you? You know, like if you're ready to answer, you could just jump right in there. But if I haven't made it clear, just ask me and I can kind of reformulate what I'm trying to say.

Trisha: 31:40

So the question what did I learn from the first marriage into the second marriage?

Mark: 31:46

is that the question yeah.

Trisha: 31:47

I think I can answer. I think I'm. I think one of the biggest things was, I think, that possibly I was with a partner I don't want to bash anybody at all, but that kind of went along with everything I said come, I think I was also somebody that was very driven like. I had one master's degree. I moved out here, I was getting my second master's degree and I knew I wanted to get married and have a baby and I was definitely one of those people and I all my friends were getting married and I felt like I had to have it at this time and I was like this is what I'm doing and I'm going to blah, blah, blah and I maybe, I maybe was missing the someone saying that they wanted to have a baby and get married to all these things, and maybe they didn't, you know, maybe I, even though they're saying it and we're doing it and we're walking down an aisle, maybe, maybe they that person clearly didn't. A few years later, they did not want those things.

Trisha: 32:36

But I think this marriage now is not just where struggling. Let's go to counseling it's, let's incorporate counseling and right away, let's have a person to kind of bounce things off of. Yes, we're busy, we don't go as much as we like to, but we have. Like she's wondering. Like let's have somebody to check in with. Life gets hard. Like let's just open up dialogue. Like how are you doing, how am I doing? Let's check in with each other. You might think things are going great. Maybe mentally you're not, you know. So, just trying to be a little bit more open and not just does that sound good? Yep, yep, yep. You sure you're just telling me what's going on with this, or you're actually good with this. Like don't just tell me what I want to hear, because I think that's maybe what happened before and that brings me up even anxiety now. Like maybe even too much. Like you sure you said that's okay, you sure that's okay. Because, like just don't tell me what I want to hear here, just tell me know if it's a no.

Trisha: 33:22

You know, I think one thing I do a lot more work with individuals now. I do have a lot. I do have a few couples on my caseload still, but I think one of the things is that and I remember this with the first marriage, even trying counseling, and it's true, when you go into a counselor's office and one person I remember I felt so hopeful. It's like we're going to work on this marriage. And the counselors like, okay, you know, if you both want to work on the marriage, I can help you. And I was like, oh, yeah, we do, like we're ready to go.

Trisha: 33:52

And then, like she had him, the ex person, step in the office and me leave, and then she had me come back in and she's like, okay, let's kind of tell her. And I was like, tell me what. And she's like, yeah, he doesn't want to work on this. Like I can't help you if you both don't actually want. And I'm like, oh, and I thought like, okay, like this is actually not going to be a divorce, like we're going to counseling because, like, we're both want to do this. And so I was like that was like whoa, that was almost felt like another punch in the stomach. But I was like, oh, that counselor is kind of right.

Trisha: 34:24

So, like when people are like we're coming in for counseling, I'm like checking in with the both people, like two wives to husbands, husband, wife, whatever the partnership is it's do you both what is your goal here? Are you coming in here for a? You know, do you both want to continue this relationship? Are you trying to separate in an amicable way? And one person that you do feel like a gun to your head, like did she make you come? Or him, or you know, if you both are like, no, we want this to work, I let's do it. Let's do it. This is I'm here for you guys. If it's like I'm at my foot's out the door, I don't even want to be here. I see what you know. I comes back like that 15 years ago. I'm like that therapist had a point. I probably can't help you if this guy doesn't even want to be in the marriage, so that that always kind of stuck with me.

Mark: 35:08

Right, right, yeah, that makes no sense.

Trisha: 35:10

I don't even know if I answered the question right.

Mark: 35:13

I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I guess that's something to say, but I really quick. I just want to add that what I took from that was that you developed your intuition Around that right Agris, like it's like, because you were able to go through it yourself. You know, you know you could read the body language. A couple comes in, you probably don't even need to ask, but you'll ask, just to be thorough, right.

Mark: 35:34

Yeah but you know, right away, you're like okay, I'm reading the vibes, I'm reading the energy, I know what's going on here. I know she wants it to work, he doesn't. I know he wants it to work, she wants it to work? Yes, you know and that helps you right help them, and sometimes helping them is helping them end it and sometimes helping them is helping them repair it. So yep.

Agris: 35:54

Yeah, I mean I've been in the situation you know.

Trisha: 35:59

Thank you for sharing.

Agris: 36:01

Yeah, this is my second marriage.

Trisha: 36:03

Me too.

Agris: 36:04

And so it's normal, you know, and there was this situation when the first was like I didn't want to and she wanted, but I had to be honest, because I think if I wouldn't be honest, that there will be just the miserable life for both of us. And I think it's very important for, to be honest, that's the most important part of it, and I think it's just as hard that it could be for actually for both parts as far. Right, because it's sometimes it's to be honest is the hardest thing, because you want just to please someone else and you forget about yourself. So here I come to the second part of my. What I perceive from this is like, also, we have to be careful what is our expectation?

Agris: 37:03

Expectations not always meet circumstances, and I think that's that's as well as for people come back to that state of present moment, not projecting out expectations, because usually the hardest thing and biggest frustration comes from when the reality doesn't meet your expectations, right, and then people just get really angry or sad or frustrated, whatever the emotion it comes at that moment. So I think it's. There was a quote before actually you came on and I told this, so the quote was like there was like there is no failure in life, it's. It's it's either win or learning. And if you recognize that there there are no win, so like okay, I'm going for the second, for learning process, you know right? Yeah, because there's no failure.

Speaker 1: 38:00

It's not a failure.

Agris: 38:01

It's just, it's what it is. It's a learning at this, learning at this stage, especially when you're young and you expect so many things and you watch the pleasant will right, the movie or what was it. You know and you think? That everyone is just saying hey, honey, I'm home, you know, or everything happens like, like, like in the movie, and then, and the reality, it's not.

Mark: 38:28

Yeah, that was like, not with relationships with Kate, but with my children. That's kind of how I felt. Like I had this idea that we were going to bring home this baby wrapped in a white cloth and she was just going to be smiling me all the time and I could just put her down for 18 hours a day and like do what I wanted to do. And I remember when we first brought her back to the house and Kate was like, all right, change her diaper. And I put her on the changing table and she was screaming bloody murder and there's something wrong with her, there's something seriously wrong with her. And she was like. She was like will you just get out of the way? It's called the crying baby. Like stop being so dramatic. I'm like, no, I've seen crying. This is something completely that didn't go away for a long time.

Mark: 39:14

I mean, like I seriously I used to say to Kate I feel like I think she's going to like whatever, I'm not going to go there.

Mark: 39:21

I thought she was going to develop all these issues because she was crying and it realized that that's what happens with babies, and so the same thing with, you know, marriage too.

Mark: 39:30

It's like we go into it, like you said, aggras with these expectations of what it's supposed to be like, and then reality kicks in, and then you're faced with a decision of now what you want to do. Do you adjust your expectations, you know, are you willing to work with it or what do you want to do? Right, like you're faced with a decision. But the tough thing is it's a decision that you have created with somebody else, so there's two people involved with that decision, so it's not just like a one way thing. But yeah, I mean, I really didn't want to activate this in either of you, but I appreciate that the conversation has gone in this direction because I know you both and I know how much you love your families and I know, like, the beautiful marriages that you have, and I know that you know there obviously is a happy ending, even though that means, you know, there's fights and arguments and there's, you know, working through all that. Of course we all have that.

Agris: 40:29

You know, but no, I don't, I don't.

Trisha: 40:34

We need to work on your honesty.

Mark: 40:39

Oh, I know what I was going to say. Do you want to talk about that? How does that make you feel? But I was thinking that you both because I know you both but you don't know each other that you're both saviors, right? So, like your people that like to help and save other people. So I would imagine that going through the process of divorce and making that really difficult decision and going through that must have been extra painful. Coming from the point of like, this isn't who I am as a person. I'm someone that makes it work. I'm someone that serves other people. I you know. You know giving the other person what they want, so it's got to be. There must have been a lot of growth that took place, you know, going through that process.

Agris: 41:21

Definitely and basically. Actually, mark is giving us therapy.

Trisha: 41:27

Yeah, I guess.

Mark: 41:31

Well, you all right. So if you want to go in that direction that's since we're on the topic I will tell you what I feel like and then I want both of your input on this. I feel like what has worked in my relationship with Kate right and has always always, but even more recently has been that my problem with her is and then I'm talking about in general, not about to reveal something I don't like about it my problem with her is a problem that I have with myself that I'm not willing to look at, and she's the closest thing for me to like project that onto you know, and so like my ability or my willingness, or my awareness of the self-work that I needed to do and the healing work that needed to take place on the parts of me that were not okay because of what's happened to me in the past are the reasons why we get along the way that we do. And I literally can stop myself, because you know things go wrong in a marriage and you know we both of us joke about this at separate times when we're together, but it's so easy to want to blame your spouse for something not going right, you know like, all right, just do me a favor, call the camp today and tell them that they're not going to be there tomorrow. Oh yeah, no problem.

Mark: 42:45

And then, like six o'clock rolls around, like you called the camp, right, like oh was I? Yeah, that's right, I was supposed to call the camp, you know. And you immediately I mean it's like a trigger reaction you immediately want to be like I can't believe, you didn't do that. I told you to do that. You said you were going to do that. If I said I was going to do that, I would have done it. You said you were going to do it, you didn't do it. So that's kind of a big problem, right? Like you're kind of a problem.

Trisha: 43:09

Laughing because this is like. I think we have a conversation like last week, Yep.

Mark: 43:15

So, so, but now, because of all that work that I was just talking about, I feel like I listened to that voice in my head and I just don't allow it to come. I don't give it the microphone, and that doesn't mean that I'm regressing. What's the word I'm looking for? Repressing. Repressing it, thank you, doesn't mean I'm repressing it. Just I don't give it a voice because I know that that's just a conversation that I'm having with myself. Like you know what, you drop the ball all the time, and so if you're willing to forgive yourself when you drop the ball, then you have to be willing to forgive your spouse when they drop the ball. We all drop the ball, all of us all the time, and when we're not willing to admit that and take ownership over our own mistakes, then we're too quick to blame like the people around us for for their shortcomings and what they do wrong. So I'll throw that out there and then you can give your therapeutic approach to that.

Trisha: 44:06

No, I think it's excellent not to cut you up. I think it's excellent all the work you've done and that you can even realize that, because I think a lot of people haven't done that and those little arguments happen in most people's houses and I think the fact that you can even understand that okay, that was projection. This is me, and you're right. Like we all drop the ball every single day and we all have to forgive ourselves, and I think some people can't even forgive themselves. I think some people don't even have the self, compassion, the self. It's like maybe, if I drop the ball, oh, my God, I'm the worst person ever, I'm a piece of crap, right, like I don't even have enough, you know I'm not worthy. And then it's like so, if so, maybe I don't even have that skill, and then, yes, I'm going to lash out if you drop the ball, because I also treat myself like crap when I you know. But I, I appreciate that you did all that work because you're absolutely right, I think it. You're not even giving it a voice.

Trisha: 44:57

You're probably going Okay, yeah, you forgot, I guess we're gonna have to send her an email tonight. You know, you're probably doing the. I forgot many times too, kate, I'll send a quick email or you're just doing the normalizing like been there and done. That you know Makes sense. You've been. Both of us have been so busy today I could see why you forgot, right. You're just validating normalizing and not letting it viral Cause that, yeah, I guess that was a me a way of saying I wish all of us could do some of that and realize when we're projecting cause I think it happens a lot in a lot of different scenarios.

Mark: 45:30

And not that you're asking me this question, but I think the reason why I've done that and I'm always saying this cause you acknowledged it but the only reason why I did that work is because of my spiritual journey that I went on. Because you know, when everything happened with my loss and trying to make sense out of that, I dove into spirituality to try to make sense out of, you know, life after death and after death, communication, and you know, just trying to make sense, and when you like embark on that path, you start to read a lot of books and maybe take classes and go to seminars or listen to YouTube videos or whatever, but just messages, teachings, whatever, about becoming more spiritual, like just becoming a spiritual person. And so I thought the more I read, the more I understood, comprehended, the more conscious I was about spirituality in general. That meant that I was a more spiritual person and my desire to do that work on myself came because I was reading all of this stuff. I was absorbing all of this knowledge about spirituality, but it was a complete conflict of how I was day to day living, you know, cause I really was very easy for me to meditate and say peaceful things and mantras and all that stuff when nobody is home.

Mark: 46:46

But then when somebody walks in the door, it's like, immediately, it's like why do you have your shoes on? I thought we take our shoes off at the door, you know. And then it's like, oh, I'm sorry. And it's like, well, we did talk about this yesterday. Well, like, suddenly, I'm not a spiritual person. Suddenly am I really a spiritual person? Or am I just someone that has read a lot about spirituality and is pretending to be a spiritual person? And I'm learning that, if it's really pissing me off that much that the kids didn't take their shoes off of the door, or my spouse forgot to pick up our kid, or whatever we could come up with a hundred different things I just feel like those were indicators that something wasn't right. So that's why I dove into the self-help stuff, like doing the inner work and working on myself, just to not be a hypocrite. That was literally it, because I couldn't understand, like I said, all these mantras, these affirmations, and I still want to strangle my spouse. So, like something's not right here, you know.

Trisha: 47:45

I think that's amazing, I do.

Mark: 47:48

What about you Agres? Did you, I know-.

Agris: 47:51

Oh yeah, I mean, listen, came to my mind was actually that simple situation about the life of circles, where you outside of the circle is usually not important, not now, and we actually spend in that circle most of our time. It's all about urgency usually, and this is how my consciousness looking at this. You know like we tend to do whatever others should put on us a lot. You know, like you should do this, you should do that. You know we don't actually go into center what is important for us but not urgent, and I think your wife has a very good sense of that, so she spends the time in that importance for herself, but not, you know, I just trying to explain.

Agris: 48:49

Actually, I see this as a very good quality that whatever comes into our mind and we think it has to be done, we just do it in that present moment, ourselves and not putting this on someone else.

Agris: 49:03

And because that's again is expectation, you know, and expectation doesn't mean meet reality, whatever it comes emotions out of this. You know, like, and that's just look from that standpoint, like, of course, it's great that you can actually not voice it when the situation happens, because you met that frustration, but you were aware, conscious enough to not blame someone because you had that sense of present moment and didn't do it. That's how I look at this situation and I think everyone should really look at their agenda and see how much they do from their centred place of the person what is important for them and probably not urgent, but they still do it because it's important for them. But most of the times, unfortunately, people spend on not important, urgent stuff in their daily life because many other people put should do list on them. That's actually probably in family many times that makes confrontations and lots of negative feelings and you say I don't know, probably it is. That's a conflict.

Trisha: 50:21

Yeah, absolutely, you're right.

Mark: 50:23

And that probably ties into the self work too, because that's part of having boundaries, even in a relationship with a spouse.

Mark: 50:31

You know, and we're willing to do, and what we're not willing to do, because a lot of us, you know if our conditioning trained us into saying yes even when we wanted to say no, right.

Mark: 50:44

And so we become adults and we're supposed to be behaving like adults but we're actually still behaving like children because we're saying yes and we're also getting back at them in another way. You know what I mean. Like it's and you probably see that all the time when people come in for marriage counseling, right, and it's like you're like, okay, talk to me, tell me what's going on and they start saying, like whatever it is, like I could say a couple of funny things, but like you know whatever they come up with, and then you're like, okay, you probably assess the situation in your mind and think that's not the problem here. That's just showing up as the problem, like so that you can point the finger at something. That all right. So now I'm gonna let you talk about that for a second. I know we're running out of time, so I was just gonna say that's the content.

Trisha: 51:28

Right, a lot of people come in and it's like they're so stuck on the content, right, like you said, and my wife didn't pick up the kids the content and blah, blah. It's like, okay, let's break this down. Right, like it's production, it's communication, it's right Like it's like those bigger themes come up and counseling and it's like but then he called me. You know, it's like, okay, what is like the content? It's sometimes like and then on Tuesday this happened, and then Wednesday he drove past and then on Thursday, right after work at 3.30, all right, you know, really we got to slow down the communication.

Trisha: 51:57

Right, it's a lot about, like, people think it's about the content and like but wait, what happened at camp that day? Like it's really like what themes are you coming in for? And you're right, it's communication. Sometimes it's respectful communication, listening. But yes, a lot of people get stuck on that and you're right, they think they're coming in for something and it turns into maybe something a lot deeper than that. Right, it's like oh, just a quick little. And it's like, maybe going to childhood stuff. Maybe, you're right, maybe a people pleaser, maybe I was raised this way and maybe childhood trauma maybe. Often it's like let's get you some individual and you and we'll meet back here as a couple, you know and you're right, not usually just a couple of like a quick fix and a one-time type of thing.

Mark: 52:36

Right, right, and do you find there's a willingness for people to accept that? Because I see all too often in general that it's easier to just blame. You know the person, like yeah, you know everything that you're saying makes sense, but he's actually a real problem. You know what I mean, like, and you're like okay, but what I was trying to say is like every time you think the other person is the problem, there's probably something in you that's actually you're not okay with. Yeah, that makes sense, but you haven't met my husband. He actually is one of the worst humans that lives on the streets.

Trisha: 53:11

No, and I know you and I have talked about this and I know we're running out of time, but I do think and I'm not trying to do my own horn but that rapport is so important. So when you have that rapport I do don't I feel like this would really benefit you to do maybe some individual work and I wouldn't be your couples counselor and your individual, or if I was your individual I'd send you to couples. I really don't have pushback and I'm not like you can't come back to me if you don't see an individual. But maybe have you thought about, with the rapport we have it's usually I haven't, but that's a really good idea Do you have referrals?

Trisha: 53:43

Now that I've been working with you and we've talked through this and like we have this relationship, it does kind of make sense what you're saying, trisha. So I don't you're right, first session, what the hell are you talking about? But I probably wouldn't bring that up in the first session because we're establishing that rapport and I walked into someone's office and they're like, well, you need this and that I probably would walk out too. So it takes a little bit of time to kind of build that trust and get the rapport Right, I'll shut up now, really good, I know what you're talking about.

Agris: 54:07

No, no, no, no, and actually, like usually, mark does. Conclusion reports.

Agris: 54:13

Yeah, particularly I will take this lead this time. Okay, go for it. So if I look at this from that perspective and I like to look at the perspective, and then another day I get message within usually get those messages in the morning, mark too, I know but it says that we are not supposed to be bent by events or circumstances, but we are who bending circumstances and events. And what I mean by this is that, and what I've seen through this conversation is that many people they just put layers and layers and layers, layers, layers of events, without taking ownership of events, till it explodes. You know, and I think it's important. That's why it's important, like every time you experience that emotion from event and that's the signal for you, for your awareness oh, I feel something. So let's explore it, let's take a pause and let's explore it. What does it mean for me?

Agris: 55:24

And I think, if person every time would have this attunement, that signal, the thing for any emotion appears from event, because it can appear only from event, right, and really to go a little bit, you know it probably just two, five seconds sometimes and like oh, okay, that's it, okay, fine, you know there's take action, sort of emotional action, respond, emotional responsibility, whatever we can call it to sort this emotionally. Within there's no layers, layers, layers, layers, layers, layers, and you live in miserable layers of your life, and then you explode one day, right, and then you blame everyone else outside because that's you think, that's all what happens to me, but not out of me. So, anyway, I think that's what I can ask you questions based on that.

Mark: 56:18

Can I ask you a question? So are you saying like, like, we take all these events and we sort of like we meld them all together to mean one day we meld them together to mean one big thing, like, but, but if we took each thing individually, it wouldn't have the same meaning. So, in other words, like if, if going back to the spouse thing, because our theme is marriages and families and stuff like that you know he didn't show up in the way I expected him to show up does not mean in general, he does not love me, right? Yeah, it just means that he was busy and you know, and like, if, if me remembering stuff was a direct, was a direct indicator of how much I loved my wife, then she would probably feel that she was in the most loveless marriage on the face of the earth, because I literally, you know, have to be reminded of stuff all the time.

Mark: 57:09

you know, like literally 10 minutes after, like what time do I have to pick up the kids again? Like you just asked me that and it's worth 30. Anyway, so is that what you're saying, agres? Like basically that we're lumping things together and taking the meaning of the lumping, rather than like separating the things and seeing everything for really what it is?

Agris: 57:28

Yeah, we don't live in present moment and we don't pay attention to it. It still affects us but we just like skip it, skip it, skip it, skip it. You know, and we skip so much that we are so overwhelmed of skipping that just explodes at some one moment. So that if you would really be aware of each moment and each event or whatever happens and it's not like many, many events happens all the time, you know sometimes major event happens which touch your heart, touch or emotions Once in a while, but if he's still living that emotion and some something else comes which overrides it, like it's over, it just overrides because, as we usually joke, you know like, oh, this is really shitty situation, wait till some other shitty situation will come and you will forget about this. But we don't. It actually stays in background and there is lots of shitty situations which is not solved, and that's why it can, I think, and I know it's.

Trisha: 58:30

I was think, I think, our graces also speaking to mark what you were talking about with a projection, like, if you don't, he's saying if you don't address those little things, they pile, pile, pile and is like, all right, forget about that, I'm actually fine, pile, pile, pile, and then you explode. But you were speaking to, I actually did that work, so I'm not exploding. You're going. Oh, wait a minute, I'm triggered here. That's my own issue and most people, I think. He's saying that people are buried again. So he's saying if you could just not, and be aware of our own emotion and what's happening for us, I think, is that kind of right?

Agris: 59:01

So much more easy to do one by one Every time it's a curse in our life rather than really.

Agris: 59:08

Then, when you are really, obviously then you go to coaches, to therapist, right then you go and try and therapist like oh my gosh, there is like big snowball, it's not like one falling from the sky, it's actually like avalanche, which is very famous Colorado, and so it's like it's in a sports references. You know, I love it. You know like, just love it. You know that's like it's really. It becomes an avalanche of the problems and you're like, oh my gosh, you know how I'm going to, even from where I start, because you take one problem out and there's behind the problem like 20 more and that's probably couple or family. They are not even aware of it because it just starts to come out and you are like, into all this beautiful circumstances trying to solve what is love, but actually all it is it is love. I think that's amazing way to finish episodes.

Mark: 1:00:14

My takeaway is that I'm pretty sure we should rename the show to the agris trisha and mark show, and we should just continue this conversation, and definitely because it's been a lot of fun. And, trisha, thank you so much for cutting time out of your busy day to talk to us and to share your insight and your vulnerability and your you know we just love you, so thank you guys so much for having me.

Trisha: 1:00:36

It was so much fun and nice to meet you agris and see you mark. That was such a treat in my day. Thank you guys.

Agris: 1:00:44

Thank you for being yourself, you know, and I think that's that's means the most for me, because you, you didn't pretend.

Trisha: 1:00:53

Oh, I can't, I'm very I can't, I mean like.

Agris: 1:00:56

So thank you for saying it's amazing and I felt this, and this is really amazing that you came as a friend, as person who really feels and really cares. So thank you so much and thank you hope to see you soon again.

Trisha: 1:01:13

I hope to see you soon.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

Bye. Thank you for tuning into this is source, this conversation has sparked something within you and that you feel inspired to continue exploring your own journey of self discovery. Remember you are the source of your own transformation and the possibilities for growth and expansion are infinite. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and family, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep shining your light and living your truth.